Misuse of Spiritual Leadership- Karl Faase
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Welcome to Sunburnt Souls, the podcast where faith meets real-life struggles, exploring the intersection of mental health and Christian living. Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Karl Faase—one of Australia’s most respected Christian leaders, media producers, and cultural commentators. Karl has been shaping the conversation around faith, leadership, and media through his work at Olive Tree Media, The Daily Nudge, Jesus the Game Changer, and Faith Runs Deep.
In this chat, we dive into crucial discussions on church leadership, accountability, and the shifting landscape of Christian ministry. Karl shares his insights on the rise and fall of high-profile ministries, the importance of governance, and how leaders can safeguard integrity in today’s church culture. Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, or someone passionate about the future of Christianity, this episode is packed with wisdom, challenge, and encouragement.
Dave: Thank you so much for coming on Sunburnt Souls, Karl Faase. I feel super privileged to have you on our show.
Karl Faase: Thank you, Dave. It's a privilege. It's good to talk to you—great to be a part of something solid.
Who is Karl Faase?
Karl, You've actually been a part of our family for a lot longer than you know, Karl, because we used to listen to The Daily Nudge on the way to school every day. You’d drop pearls of wisdom. One day, on the way home, we asked our son, “How was your day?” and he said, “It was really good. I learned that I should show patience when I’m frustrated… from Karl Faase.”
Karl Faase: [Laughs]
Dave: He even ended his little pearl of wisdom with, “I’m Karl Faase.” That caught on, and for the next couple of years, anytime anyone in our family dropped a pearl of wisdom, we’d say, “I’m Karl Faase.”
Karl Faase: What a fabulous story! How's your son doing?
Dave: He’s great. He’s 15 now and following Jesus for himself. He’s actually home at the moment because he had a knee operation, but he’s a delightful teenager. We’re stoked. We don’t say, “I’m Karl Faase” all the time anymore, but maybe we need to bring that back.
Karl Faase: Or maybe, “I’m Dave.”
Dave: [Laughs] That’s right!
Karl Faase: Or perhaps Mr. Quak. At some point, they’ll start quoting you.
Dave: I hope so. Right now, they’re probably quoting Mr. Beast or someone else.
Karl Faase: [Laughs] That’s lovely.
Dave: Karl, what are you up to these days? What’s going on in your world?
Karl Faase: Well, I ran a church for years—a place called Gymea Baptist Church. For those unfamiliar, Gymea is a suburb in southern Sydney, not far from Cronulla Beach. About ten years ago, my wife Jane and I stepped out of that role. She was working for the church as well, and we created Olive Tree Media.
The name comes from Psalm 52:8, which talks about being like an olive tree planted in the house of the Lord. Our concept was to create content for churches to encourage their congregations and influence people in their communities. That’s what we’ve been doing.
From Church Pulpit to Media Ministry: Karl Faase’s Journey
I was originally approached by a Brisbane radio station, 96Five Family, who asked if I could create some updated radio spots. At first, I thought I could manage 40. Fast forward to this year, and I’ve recorded my 1,000th spot! It’s a testament to consistency—just showing up. Not all of them are brilliant (that might surprise you), but some stick.
In addition to radio, we create series. Before I finished as senior pastor at Gymea Baptist, we produced Towards Belief. Then we created Jesus the Game Changer, which now has three seasons. During the pandemic, when we couldn’t leave the house—let alone the country—we produced a series called Faith Runs Deep. It focuses on Australian history and the profound influence of Jesus on our nation.
We’ve got a small but mighty team at Olive Tree Media, and we like to say we punch above our weight. Right now, we’re running regional events called Unearthed. These feature myself, Colin Buchanan, and a guest from one of our series. This year, we’ll be in Launceston at Easter, Toowoomba in April, and a real highlight—Beef Week in Rockhampton in May. Did you know there’s a Beef Week?
Dave I did not. I knew there was a lot of beef cattle in Rockhampton, but I didn't know they had a beef week.
Karl Faase Neither did I. I might have had a light of mine, and you said, "What are you doing, Karl?" And I said, "Well, actually, believe it or not, in January this year, I was doing Dairy Week." So I said, "Can you believe it? They asked me to speak at Dairy Week." And he said, "Karl, you should do Beef Week."
Like, there's a Beef Week? Anyway, we did this research, and Beef Week is huge. It's like 50,000 to 60,000 people come every three years to Rockhampton. So we contacted the churches up there and said, "Look, we do these events. Would you like us to come?" And they were like, "We’d love you to!" So Colin Buchanan is coming up.
We've got Tim Kelly, who's a bull rider. So we're doing those Unearthed events, and we'll do six this year. And then we're also producing a new series. It'll be called Encounter: People Who Met Jesus Then and Now, and that's being filmed now. We’re filming in England. We've just been in Africa for a couple of weeks in January, and then in the US as well. So that'll be a fabulous series, and it'll be released late this year. We’re juggling a few things and looking forward to it.
Dave Well yeah, it definitely isn’t just, "I’ll retire from church pastoring and then just sit around fishing." You’ve been busy for the last decade! That’s a lot going on. And you're also board chair of one of our favorite organisations, Samaritan’s Purse.
Karl Faase Yeah.
Dave So my daughter Milani basically saves all her pocket money all year for the Samaritan’s Purse Christmas appeal. Her goal is always to dig a well or two wells every year. It’s an amazing organisation.
Karl Faase Yeah, good on her. It is a great organisation. Samaritan’s Purse has an international board, and its head office is in Boone, North Carolina. The international board consists mostly of people from the US, but also from other countries like the UK, Australia, Germany, and Canada, which have local boards.
The local board sits under the international board. We got a new CEO last year, Mark Bennett. Mark has a long history in ministry around the globe, and he’s just a wonderful leader. It’s a great organisation, and it’s wonderful to see your daughter involved.
Dave Oh yeah, she loves it. She loves it.
I was interested, Karl, because I follow your Facebook, and I love the O’Leary’s Church content. I specifically love how it's targeted to the Australian demographic. Obviously, it reaches overseas too, but it’s great that you’re a spokesperson for Australian church culture.
One of your posts a couple of weeks ago really caught my attention because I’ve been thinking about church leadership a lot. It seems like there's a real changing landscape in leadership, church styles, and church sizes.
This particular post just exploded with comments and discussion. Some of it was very passionate, which is great. If you don’t mind me reading it out, it said:
Karl’s quote that caught my attention
A mainstream newspaper made this quote about Christian ministry and its leadership ethics:
"There’s a special clique of people at the top who play by different rules from the rest—a select group where family and friends could seemingly do as they pleased with the protection of an all-boys network at the top. For some, this was the very antithesis of the Christian message."
When I read that, Karl, I was like, yes, we need to speak into this because it’s so important. And I’ve noticed over the last couple of years, you’ve done different interviews and discussions around this topic. What motivated you to post that specifically?
Karl Faase I look at it like this—it's been sitting with me, not just that specific quote, but the issue itself, for the last five to ten years.
Anybody who has been in Christian ministry and watches the leadership landscape globally will have noticed that the revelations in the last five years have been absolutely appalling.
If you’d said to me 15 years ago that these organisations would fall due to leadership failure, I would have told you, "You’re dreaming," to use an Australian phrase.
Who would have thought that Willow Creek Church would break? That Hillsong would face so many challenges? That other major churches in Australia, like one in Melbourne just last month, would collapse due to leadership failures?
Just today, news came out of England about a key leader in an Anglican ministry—one that was cutting-edge ten years ago—who has been charged with 33 counts of sexual assault.
And the trouble is, it just goes on and on and on.
The Fall of Church Leaders: What’s Really Going On?
It's either that rising up through the church is a whole bunch of very, very dysfunctional people—that could be the case. Or we're setting up systems within organisations and churches that fail to hold people accountable. Yeah. And I think it's more the second than the first. That post was about the idea that someone could write that quote you just read in a major Australian newspaper, and that quote is taken straight from a book released the same week.
Gone is the Kingdom is the book. It covers the rise and fall of Brian Houston and Hillsong Church. That quote should take you straight to the book, and basically, nobody's really challenging it. Essentially, the quote is accurate. Yeah. And that's depressing—that you could say that about someone in leadership in a major Christian organisation and it actually be true.
So what's going on that this is the case? The most excruciating listening of the last ten years—though it's not that old—has been The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill with Mike Cosper. It's excruciating because it starts well, but then it goes through a bit of a dull patch in the middle.
But The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill isn't just about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. What Mike Cosper is looking at is celebrity culture within Christian organisations—the culture where you protect, honor, and back the leader. Those are good things when done properly because they honor the person God has raised up for that role.
Karl Faase: But when it's done in such a way that the leader becomes unaccountable, it breeds the sorts of outcomes we're now seeing. And I think that’s a huge issue we need to deal with.
Dave: It is huge. And I agree—it was hard listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. I had to take it 20 minutes at a time because it was gut-wrenching. He was really prominent when I was starting to invest in ministry, and he had a huge influence on my personal walk.Then you start seeing all this stuff happening behind the scenes. That’s one of the hardest things—when people are personally invested, they can overlook some of the issues you just mentioned.
Karl Faase: Yeah. Mars Hill grew exceptionally—it had around 20,000 to 30,000 people involved. It was seen as successful. I read his first book, Confessions of a Reformission Rev, and I quite liked it. He’s a genius. Everyone was being so careful, and here’s this guy who was just out there.
But here’s what helped change my mind on Mark Driscoll—way before the podcast came out, around 2012 or 2013, he was interviewed by a guy I know reasonably well in England, Justin Brierley. Justin hosted a show on Premier Radio called Unbelievable, which featured debates on Christian theology and apologetics.
Karl Faase: In that interview, there was a difference of opinion, and things escalated after. It involved Justin Brierley’s wife, who is a pastor, and that didn’t sit well with Driscoll. After the interview, Driscoll went back to America and started publicly badmouthing Justin Brierley about their interaction.
Justin responded by saying, "Here’s what’s being said, and here’s the transcript—you make up your own mind." It was all recorded. And Driscoll’s attitude was appalling. I read the transcript and thought, "I’m done here." If that’s your attitude, you have no place in Christian ministry.
Karl Faase: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast showed that the transcript of that interaction with Justin Brierley was actually a window into Driscoll’s character. And there must have been literally hundreds of people who saw that window. So why did it take so long for people to act?
Dave: Yeah, why does it take so long? Why does it take so long for character issues to catch up with everyone’s disillusionment? I always wonder why people put up with it.
Karl Faase: There are different people and different characters at play. What we’re talking about here isn’t gossip or badmouthing people—it’s public. These are well-documented stories. Two examples are Bill Hybels and Mark Driscoll, though their cases are quite different.
What happened to Bill Hybels?
Bill Hybels had inappropriate relationships with multiple women, but it was subtle and in the background. Unless those women spoke out, it was hard for anyone else to see what was happening. When they did, there was resistance—first an internal review that found nothing, then an external review that made things absolutely clear.That was a secret sin situation.
Mark Driscoll, on the other hand, was a very different case. If you listen to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, you see his character in play over and over. So what was happening there? Well, if someone is successful—if thousands of people are showing up, money is rolling in, and lives are being changed—people assume God is blessing it. So how do you stand against someone who seems to have God’s favor?
Karl Faase: That’s a different problem. One is a private moral failing that only a few people witness, making it hard to expose. The other is a failure of governance—where the systems that should hold a leader accountable don’t work, and the people who do know what’s happening don’t feel safe speaking out.
Karl Faase: Once you dig into The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, you see a long list of people saying, "This is what was happening." And yet, it continued. You even see similar failures in other places, like the case of Soul Survivor. It’s a middle-ground example—there were numerous young men affected. While there wasn’t necessarily anything sexual happening, there was inappropriate behavior, gaslighting, and emotional manipulation.
The point is, many people saw what was happening, but nobody spoke up. And that’s the challenge—when someone has a platform and a following, people hesitate to say, "This is wrong."There was a statement from an Australian of the Year—though I don’t think they were a great choice, but that’s another discussion.
The statement was: The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. You know, at least you've said, "Okay, I've done my bit. I'm moving on." You don’t have to run a campaign, but you do have to be clear. In the end, leadership systems and governance come into play. But each of us—every one of us—needs to stand up and say, "This just isn't right" when things go wrong. Yeah, and when that happens, change follows.
Leadership Scandals and the Call for Greater Church Accountability
I really appreciate you speaking into this Karl Faase because I know you love the body of Christ as much as I do. When we talk about these tough issues, it’s not gossip—I don’t want this to be true. I wish these accountability processes had worked. Imagine if Mars Hill had continued for another ten years. Willow Creek impacted lives all over the world.
I have a heart for people struggling with faith while also dealing with mental health issues. Sometimes, when you’re battling mental health challenges, you don’t feel confident enough to challenge someone in authority. If someone doesn’t have the capacity to step up, what’s another solution for keeping organisations on track for the kingdom of God?
Karl Faase
Let me speak into that from my perspective as a pastoral leader. I’ve had people on my staff—one in particular, a delightful woman—who struggled with mental health issues multiple times. She was hospitalised on several occasions. It wasn’t just a rough couple of days—it was real.
She remained on staff for a long time, and we had a great relationship. But I recognised that for someone like her, and for anyone with a well-known mental health condition, there’s an added challenge. You worry that if you speak up, people will dismiss you by saying, "Oh, that’s just the mental health issue talking."
And yet, some of the most brilliant people in the world have struggled with bipolar disorder.
Dave
That’s right.
Karl Faase
There’s actually a well-known Australian writer who’s open about having bipolar disorder. The fascinating thing is that when they’re in an "up" phase, they’re absolutely brilliant—that’s when they write books.
Dave
That’s so true.
Karl Faase
It’s all happening in their minds. Yes, they hit low points too, but people with mental health challenges often have a heightened radar for certain things. They pick up on issues that others might miss.
First, we need to acknowledge that, yes, there’s a risk of being dismissed. That’s a real challenge.
Dave
Yeah, absolutely.
Karl Faase
Second, in all these situations, we have to focus on facts, not just perceptions. That’s really tricky. Sometimes people say, "I don’t think that relationship is right between this leader and that person."
I remember a time in my church when someone came to me and said, "Something doesn’t feel right about that relationship." I had spoken with the staff members involved, and everything seemed fine. But 18 months after one of them resigned, it turned out the person raising concerns was actually wrong.
And that’s what makes this so difficult. A perception might be accurate, or it might not be. And when you ask people questions, they’re not always honest.
What happened to Ravi Zacharias?
That’s why, if we go back to the case of Ravi Zacharias—what an appalling story. If anyone followed it, Ravi would take a young man overseas with him just to create the appearance of accountability. But when you read about what was actually happening behind the scenes…
Ravi Zacharias, a prominent Christian apologist, was posthumously accused of sexual misconduct after his death in 2020. Allegations, including harassment and manipulation, were confirmed in a 2021 investigation, causing significant controversy.
Dave: Yeah…
Karl Faase
People who engage in morally questionable behaviour will also be deceptive about it. That’s the real challenge.
Karl Faase: True. So that's where this all becomes very difficult. But the other thing to say is recognising that you can't just run ahead with perceptions. You can't just rush off to good leadership and say, "I guess what I know to be the case."
But the other thing to say is that there are people in the organisation that you trust. There ought to be people you trust that you can have a conversation with. And in a sense, once you've had that conversation, your job is—I don't think some people would agree with this—but I don't think your job is to become a crusader on this. Your job is to say, "I've had the conversation. I've been before God, before my friends. I've been honest and upfront. I've given the facts, and I have to leave it with them."
In a lot of situations, that's what you do. If there are a few people having those conversations, then it can come out. The other thing to consider is: how do I say this? If you have serious concerns about the credibility of the leaders of an organisation or church you're involved with, then you need to consider whether you should be part of it.
Dave: Okay?
Karl Faase: And that's hard. At what point do you say, "I don’t think I can be giving my time, energy, and finances to an organisation that doesn’t take governance seriously?" That’s a long way down the track.
While we're on this subject, there could be people listening to your podcast who have had mental health issues. They go through these times, and they are sometimes the vulnerable ones who get used by immoral leaders. I want to say to anybody who's listening: if that's happened to you, you need to find someone to talk to. If that’s happening to you right now, you need to find someone to talk to.
If you're being gaslit by a leader who says, "Oh, you know, maybe this isn’t right, but God wants us to do this because it's important," or, "This relationship, which has to stay sacred, is really important for me and for God"—none of that is true. It's immoral, it's inappropriate, and you're being used. Anybody in that situation needs to get help and talk to someone because—how do I say this, Dave?—it’s only going to end in tears.
Dave: Yes.
Karl Faase: Yeah. It’s never going to end well. If you're listening to this, and you’ve had your own struggles, this is a really encouraging space. But you're also in a vulnerable position for toxic leaders. I would hate for anyone listening to us today to be in that space and stay there. It's really important that they don’t.
Dave: Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that, Karl, because I 100% agree. One of your questions of reflection after that post was that leaders need to ask themselves, "How do we use our access to ministry resources?" Now, I don’t want to minimise a human being to a ministry resource. Obviously, God doesn’t see us that way at all.
But I do get upset when I see leaders treating interns or volunteers as ministry resources for their own benefit—mowing the lawn, cleaning the car—things that have nothing to do with ministry or mentoring. Sometimes, you just hear these stories of people being used by the church. We want God to use us; we don’t want people to use us.
Karl Faase: I know of a story—a good friend of our family, her son was a ministry intern. In one situation, this young man was getting up at 4:00 AM to drive across town, pick up the ministry leader, and drive them to the airport at 5:30 or 6:00 AM—while the ministry leader’s whole family was asleep in the house.
If you're a ministry intern, that is not your job. And I think, you know, there have been many stories about Hillsong, which can be a little depressing. Some of them have tried to be balanced, and I think in a sense, a lot have tried to be fair. But one of the points they make is about what they call "slave-ish labor."
I get the point they’re making—people turn up as interns, they want to serve, and there are things that need to be done. But in some settings, it's simply not appropriate. You’re using someone’s good heart and good nature in a way that is wrong.
Babysitting, cleaning, car washing, mowing lawns, or transport at odd times—none of that should be part of an intern role. That’s just using people in a way that shouldn’t happen.
And if you’re listening and thinking, "I do that all the time," you need to have a conversation. The trouble is, when you do, this is how it often plays out: you have the conversation, and then suddenly, "Oh, here’s Peter. He used to be a good guy, but now he’s getting negative, he’s becoming critical, and he’s got a critical spirit."
Karl Faase Yeah. And we need to pray for Peter because Peter's critical spirit undermines the ministry that God is having us do. Yeah. And we have a Peter—no, you don't—you just, it's just you calling people to account. And I would hope in my best moments, Dave, that all of this that's coming out has people thinking through.
“For a long time I have felt taken for granted in my church. I poured myself into serving—leading worship, helping with events, and supporting others—but the more I gave, the more I felt invisible and drained. No one seemed to notice my struggles or ask how I was doing, and I began to feel like I was just a tool for the church’s needs.
It wasn’t until a close friend pointed out that I was being exploited and my worth wasn’t tied to what I could do, that I realised I needed to set boundaries and prioritise my own well-being. Through counselling, prayer, and leaning into God’s love, I’ve learned to serve from a place of healing, recognising that my value isn’t in my work, but in who I am as a child of God.”
Spiritual Abuse in the Church: How to Identify and Prevent It
One of the stories, if I can just say, that kind of paints what you're saying has come through again on Peter and Hillsong. I met the producer a couple of times. A number of people I know are still at Hillsong and are friends of mine. They've done a power of good across the globe, and they're wonderful people.
But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some rethinking in how they were functioning. One of the things that has been pointed out is that you've got these young women and men, but mostly women, coming from overseas. They're 18, 19, 20 years old. They fly to Australia, and the only people they know are at Hillsong College and Hillsong Church.
They live in a house, which is kind of paid for, and they share rooms. So the college and the church are their landlords. They then pay to attend college and do a course. The college is their lecturer, and the principal of the college is part of the same organisation. Then they go to the church, where the pastor is also from the same organisation. So every person in their life comes from the same group. And if something goes wrong, where do they go?
One of the stories that really illustrates this is about a young lady, I think her name was Anna Crenshaw. She was the daughter of a pastor who came to Australia to do the Hillsong course. She was inappropriately touched by a young man from the leadership of the church who had drunk too much. Just a horrible, awful story.
But when she complained, she was essentially given the runaround. Her entire world—her home, college, church, and volunteering—was all the same people. But because her father was a well-known pastor in the U.S., and she had support, the young man was taken to court and found guilty.
The interesting thing is that after it happened and was reported to leadership, he kept his job. He should not have kept his job. In no place—not just a church—if you did that anywhere, you would not keep your job. And that’s where this quote you read before comes in—he was the son of a key leader within the organisation. It’s a bit like, if you're in the in-crowd, you can do what you like. But if you’re just some kid from America paying board and fees, you’re caught up in the system.
Serving vs. Being Used: Are Churches Exploiting Volunteers?
We need to guard against that as much as we possibly can.We do, because there’s that structural inequality. And not only that, like you said, even just spiritually—you come from another country, and you're under an organisation that's telling you, "This is what God would have you do" or "This is how you behave as a disciple" or "This is Christianity."
Not only are you standing for your own rights against a person, but you also feel like you're standing against God. It's spiritual abuse, and it's my least favorite of all. All abuse is terrible.
Spiritual abuse occurs when religion, faith, or beliefs are used to manipulate, control, or exert power over someone. If you feel you are experiencing spiritual abuse, don’t hesitate to seek support.
Karl Faase It is. And the interesting thing about all of this is that if you take some of those other people—like, I listened to and read Bill Hybels' stuff over the years. Now, nobody says to Bill Hybels, "What you were teaching was not right, and that’s why you behaved badly." No, he just didn't keep to his own standards.
He gave great standards—he just didn’t live up to them. He told everybody how they should behave with their staff, with members of the opposite sex, and in leadership roles. But he didn’t follow his own rules. It wasn’t like Ravi Zacharias, who openly endorsed something inappropriate. No one in these organisations is outright saying, "It’s good to have a few mistresses on the side because it’s good for your ministry."
And, you know, nobody in any of these organisations really does that. They all say the right stuff. It’s just that they don't always live it out. And the key is—I know this will surprise you, Dave—I’m not perfect. So what do I need? I need people around me who will call me to account when I start behaving inappropriately. If nobody holds me accountable, then my human nature will lead me into the wrong spaces. That’s the key to all of this—none of us should fully trust ourselves.
And it’s not because we’re all awful—it’s just because we’re all human. So if we don’t have accountability structures in place, and we’re in a system where no one calls us to account, then that becomes the real issue.
And look, I think we need to acknowledge that while we’ve talked about sexual misconduct, that wasn’t the issue for Mark Driscoll. His problem was leadership. And there are other issues in various organisations. A lot of people might not know this, but Paul Yonggi Cho, who ran the biggest church in the world in South Korea, was jailed for financial impropriety.
Dave I didn’t know that.
Karl Faase Yeah, it’s interesting. He came to Australia a number of times, and if you Google his name, you’ll find reports of financial misconduct. Kong Hee, who ran a big church in Singapore, was also jailed for financial mismanagement. If you look at the Hillsong Church in New York, Carl Lentz’s fall was very public—his sexual misconduct was widely known. But what’s not talked about as much is the financial impropriety within that church.
Karl Faase So it’s not just about sexual misconduct—it’s also about power dynamics and financial integrity. And all of those areas need to be carefully watched.
Dave Yeah, I appreciate that, Karl. It just hits at the heart of so many Christians when this kind of thing happens. And yes, people say, "Well, your reliance should be on God, not on men." That’s true. But these leaders have influenced and changed people’s lives.
I didn’t know about Kong Hee. I saw him preach maybe 15 years ago, and he was amazing. I didn’t know that. Karl, you’re speaking, writing, and producing content—you’re extremely influential. In my opinion, you’re one of Australia’s best representatives of the Kingdom of God. And I would hate to see you join that list. So how do you guard yourself against all of this? Just for anyone listening.
Karl Faase Well, firstly, I made a decision a number of years ago to marry well.
Jane Faase
Creative Director
Jane is the Creative Director of Olive Tree Media and the Producer of Faith Runs Deep, Jesus the Game Changer and Towards Belief. Jane’s role includes the development of our print, media and web-based resources that have international influence. She has had a background in creative design and the print industry, as well as a wide involvement in Christian ministry. Jane is on the board of Empart.
Dave Yes. Okay, stop there. That’s the best place to start. Tell us about your wife.
Karl Faase Yeah. Jane’s just fabulous...
How to maintain integrity in ministry?
We then have quite a significant board, and the whole notion of the board is that I report to them, and they hold us accountable for what we do. So in all of that, every meeting, there's an accounting for finances. One of my pet peeves, which I think is a blind spot in the church, is not getting off your question, but it's in the same space.
We have people who work in churches, and this came out in some of the books that have been written, where they are receiving a full-time wage and they're working full time while receiving that wage. During this time, they write books, and when they sell them, they get royalties.
Dave: I've always wondered about this too, Karl. I don't know how that works.
Karl Faase: Well, you know, I don't know that there'd be too many commercial companies paying $100,000 a year for someone just because they’re good at what they do. And during their time, the idea is to prepare talks for the organization. Then, they write a book and collect the royalties.
Yeah, there's a blind spot there. Another thing that came out in the papers released to the government, to Andrew Wilkie, the independent from Tasmania, was the discovery that there's this kind of nice relationship where they'll bring two dogs to Australia. This is common knowledge, but one speaker gets paid $100,000 to speak at a conference, and then speakers from here go back to their own country and get paid a lot of money. There’s this situation where books are sold and speaking fees are paid, all on top of a full-time job.
Karl Faase: I would suggest that that's not good financial accounting. I would suggest that that's not good accountability. And I think, why isn't there somebody saying, "Should we be doing that? Is that wise?" There’s a lady named Natalie Moses, who was in the accounting department and was complaining about some of these things, saying, "I really don’t think you can do that." But she was fobbed off. In the end, her response was, "Well, I'll let the whole community see." And when the whole community saw what was going on, it wasn’t good.
There's an old statement that’s been around a long time, which is very old, and you'll get it when I say it, because it doesn’t really work now, but if you're in a meeting and discussing a decision you're going to make, someone might ask, "How will this read on the front page of tomorrow's paper?"
Dave: Yeah.
Karl Faase: Of course, we don’t have newspapers or front pages anymore. Now it’s a Facebook page. But the point is, you can justify something among the five people sitting in the room, but once it's put out to the general public, and the people who are funding us through their gifts, how will it look then?
I think that's a test that needs to happen more often. There’s this notion that, "We keep it to ourselves. We don’t tell anybody. It’s all very secret. If anybody breaks the inner circle, then somehow we’re letting God and the team down." We need to break that down. Everything should be transparent. If you receive funds from the community, your books should be transparent. You should be audited. People should be able to see the outcomes of what you do.
Karl Faase: We’re in the middle of our audit, Dave. It drives me absolutely nuts. These auditors keep asking for stuff, and it’s so annoying.
But that’s the point of an independent board and an independent auditor. That’s being transparent. And the trouble is, when you start sweeping things under the carpet and packing your board with your friends, that’s when things go bad.
Dave: That’s right. If they’re yes-men, it’s just the same as not having a board at all.
Karl Faase: Yeah. It’s always good to have a board that likes you, you know, because they agree with everything you say. You have an idea, and they go, "Brilliant!" In your mind, you’re thinking, "Because I’m not…" I remember a board member saying to me years ago, "I think we should do this."
Karl Faase: Toby was unavailable at the time and said, "No, that's a nice idea, but I think it’s a complete waste of time." I can tell you that idea died in a nanosecond.
Dave: Yes.
Karl Faase: And you need those people. It’s all about being accountable and transparent. I remember looking at another board years ago, and I looked at who was on it. I thought to myself, "That’s completely wrong. They’re all ministry leaders and just that person’s friends. That’s not a board. That’s a group that gets together for coffee."
So this all connects back to your question: How do you look after yourself? There are a number of things you need to do. Clearly, Mary will have good friends, but you also need to be in a place where you’re accountable and allow yourself to be accountable. Be transparent with everything you do. And in all of this stuff, be honest. Now, half of your listeners will like the fact that I mentioned Jordan Peterson; the other half just turned off.
Karl Faase: I get that Jordan Peterson is a divisive character, and I’m not standing up saying he’s a Christian we should follow. But in his book 12 Rules for Life, there’s a line that goes something like, "Be honest or at least don’t lie."
Dave: Yeah.
Karl Faase: I reckon there are a few Christian leaders I’ve met who could actually learn from that statement. You hear things that are true, but there’s also a bit of spin. Just ask yourself: Is this honest? Not in the way that you’re rude to people—being honest doesn’t mean being rude or obnoxious. I’ve had a mate who’s now helping us in our ministry, but a couple of years ago, he’s a very wealthy guy. He said, "I’d like to help. Can I help?" And I said, "Actually, we don’t need it right now."
I'll let you know when we do. Yeah, because when we were in that particular situation, we had a contract, but that's just being honest. And when you are in nature... So actually, now we are in need, and God rang me last night. I was on the phone with a guy who said to me, "Listen, I said, we have this financial bit more short with this new series." How are you going? I said, "Can I talk to you in September?
There's a whole bunch of things happening, like the end of the financial year and all that stuff." Yeah, I know it's the end of the year, way behind, but he will help us out. Yeah. But it would be so easy to say, "Alright, we did another 100 today.
If you could keep that in, that'd be great." But it’s actually dishonouring. So, it's one of those things where you need to get the finances in order to get this role, or to get that speaking opportunity, or to get this contract. You start saying things that put you in the best light for that opportunity.
Every time, you've got to ask yourself, is that really true? Is that really accurate? I'm not trying to pretend I get it right all the time, but I try and ask that question all the time. And you need people around you that are holding you accountable in all of those modes.
Dave
I love that. Yeah, being open is so important. And I appreciate what you just said about truth—being honest. At least don't lie. We can omit things to make things more palatable, and going back to the fact that it's a ministry, it's easy to justify it as God's blessing or whatever else... like this.
Karl Faase
And that's where, you know, we need to put all these things in place. But going back to the Ravi Zacharias thing, all those things were in place. Yeah. But if you're also a toxic individual who behaves in this way, there’s almost nothing that can stop that. And I recognise that. But, you know, the way of being truly yourself, and looking yourself in the mirror and saying, "I'm living what I say, I believe.
What I say is true," and being honest with yourself, your wife, your kids, your board, and your family, is so important. You are so much further ahead than asking, "How can I scam more?" Because I'm a bit concerned about my finances. How can I make myself look good in this situation?
None of that is helpful. I think all these stories coming out basically say everything will end up on the front page of the paper, or on the next Facebook post, or Twitter feed. It’s all going to be out at some point. So you might as well be honest now. Because basically, everyone will know eventually.
Dave
So true, Karl. It's been such a blessing having you. I was wondering if it would be okay to finish by getting you to pray for both the listeners, but also the leaders listening to this, in the areas or blind spots we need to pay attention to. That God would highlight them, and we would see nationwide a massive reduction in the escalation of scandals
A prayer with Karl Faase
Lord, as we come to You, we come to You as broken people who recognise our need for You. And we come to You again today to say we’re sorry, because we are not the people that You’ve called us to be. Lord, we pray for every person called into leadership. We pray Your hedge of protection around them—not to protect them from their poor choices, but to protect them to make good choices.
I pray they would have great friends. I pray their marriages would be strong. I pray that they would honor their kids, and their kids would honour them. I pray that their organisations would flourish because they are working well under the Kingdom of God and godly values.
Lord, I pray for everyone listening with Dave today, who might be seeing things they're concerned about, or noticing toxic relationships or behavior. I pray for them right now. I pray that You give them clarity. I pray they would know they are loved by You. I pray that You would give them friends around them that would support them. I pray for good outcomes.
Lord, we want to see the Church in Australia flourish. We want to see Christian organisations in Australia make a difference. But we know this will only happen when we live out the values of the Kingdom of God. We pray You would help us to live that out and help us to call others to live it out. And we pray that we would see that happen with the emerging leadership generation across the country. We ask all of this in Jesus’ name.
5 most common questions and answers
What does the Bible say about mental illness and faith?
The Bible acknowledges mental struggles and offers comfort through scriptures like Psalm 34:17-18, which reminds us that the Lord is close to the brokenhearted. Biblical figures such as Elijah, David, and Job experienced deep despair but found strength in God. Faith and mental health are not opposed to each other. Seeking professional help, engaging in prayer, and building a supportive Christian community are ways to navigate mental illness while holding onto faith.
How can Christians support a loved one with mental health struggles?
Supporting a loved one involves listening without judgment, encouraging professional help, speaking words of encouragement, providing practical assistance, and being patient through their journey. Galatians 6:2 teaches us to carry one another’s burdens, which includes offering both emotional and physical support. The best way to help is to remain present, pray for them, and ensure they receive the care they need.
Is taking medication for mental health a lack of faith?
Taking medication for mental health is not a sign of weak faith. Just as one would take insulin for diabetes, treating mental health conditions with medication can be part of God’s provision for healing. Luke, a physician in the Bible, highlights that medicine and faith can work together. Seeking medical and spiritual guidance ensures a well-rounded approach to healing, aligning with biblical wisdom.
What are the signs of spiritual abuse in the church?
Spiritual abuse happens when religious beliefs are misused to control or manipulate others. Signs include guilt-driven obedience, leaders demanding unquestioning loyalty, fear-based teachings that discourage questions, and the exploitation of volunteers. A healthy church environment should reflect Christ’s love, encouraging accountability, humility, and transparency in leadership.
How can pastors and ministry leaders safeguard their integrity?
Integrity in ministry requires accountability, transparency, and humility. Pastors should surround themselves with wise counsel, implement financial and leadership oversight, openly address struggles, and prioritise their own spiritual and mental well-being. The Bible encourages leaders to be above reproach, serve with humility, and seek accountability to maintain trust within the church community.
How to get help with faith and mental health
If you’ve been wrestling with mental health struggles or navigating the balance between faith and medication, Sunburnt Souls is here to remind you that you’re not alone. Through open conversations and shared stories, we explore hope and healing in the messiness of life. Visit sunburntsouls.com to connect with resources and listen to more episode. Subscribe here to continue receiving updates.
